In conversation with my sister. The first past interview, recorded on Sunday, 10 November 2024.
Katrin: Patrick, I find your link between Japanese whaling and the German dairy industry really fascinating. How did you come up with the idea of linking the two topics?
Patrick: Yes, it sounds far-fetched at first, but both are really good examples of how lobbying perpetuates the exploitation of nature and animal suffering. In Japanese whaling, the government subsidises the capture of whales1Whaling in Japan, Whaling in Japan facts, as of 14 November 2024, https://us.whales.org/our-goals/stop-whaling/whaling-in-japan/ and ensures that the meat becomes popular again through free tastings2Kyoko Hasegawa, Japan shows first commercial fin whale catch in 48 years, 11.9.2024, https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2024/09/11/japan/commercial-fin-whale-catch/. This is lobbying in action! Things are similar in Germany with the dairy industry3Sascha Müller-Kraenner, Deutsche Umwelthilfe on the future report of EU agriculture: "Stop climate-damaging and flat-rate subsidies for the meat and dairy industry", press release from 4 September 2024, https://www.duh.de/presse/pressemitteilungen/pressemitteilung/deutsche-umwelthilfe-zum-zukunftsbericht-der-eu-landwirtschaft-klimaschaedliche-und-pauschale-subve/.
Katrin: That sounds incredible with the free tastings! Why does Japan do that?
Patrick: That's exactly what I asked myself. The Japanese government has an interest in keeping whaling alive4International Fund for Animal Welfare, Japan's whaling not legal: over 100,000 signatures delivered to Japanese embassies worldwide, 20 September 2024, https://www.ifaw.org/de/press-releases/japan-walfang-petition-uebergeben. There is a strong whaling lobby and they work hard to ensure that whale meat is portrayed as part of the culture and tradition5Astrid Fuchs, Kame-Kujira-Neko, The influence of the Japanese whaling lobby, 21 July 2017, https://de.whales.org/2017/07/21/der-einfluss-der-japanischen-walfanglobby/even though the market has long been saturated. People are now even going into schools and daycare centres to convince children and parents from an early age that whale meat is important for Japan's traditional food culture6Katrin Matthes, The "School of Whale Eating": Japan's strategy to increase the appetite for whale meat, 1 December 2023, https://de.whales.org/2022/12/01/die-schule-des-wal-essens-japans-strategie-den-appetit-auf-walfleisch-zu-steigern/ and forces schoolchildren to eat whale meat by offering it in school canteens7Astrid Fuchs, Kame-Kujira-Neko, The influence of the Japanese whaling lobby, 21 July 2017, https://de.whales.org/2017/07/21/der-einfluss-der-japanischen-walfanglobby/. Japan is not the only country trying by hook or by crook to keep commercial whaling going. It's very similar in Iceland and Norway8Jane J. Lee, Japan Halts Whaling Programme in Response to International Court Ruling, 2.4.2014, https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/140331-whaling-japan-international-court-ocean-animal-conservation 9 Michael Nieberg, Whale meat from the north: Why whaling is still practised in Europe, 13.10.24, https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/wissen/walfang-walfleisch-norwegen-island-100.html.
Katrin: And how would you describe the connection to the German dairy industry?
Patrick: Similar to whaling, the German dairy industry relies on massive subsidies to function economically. The subsidies are so high that German companies can export milk powder cheaply to Africa and China10Marcus Rohwetter, Milk price: There is just too much milk!, ZEIT ONLINE, 30 May 2016, https://www.zeit.de/wirtschaft/2016-05/milchgipfel-soforthilfe-bauern-subvention-milchkrise-kommentar. It is even cheaper for some countries to buy our subsidised milk powder than to support their own production. That always makes me think: what a topsy-turvy world!
Katrin: So that would basically also be an example of artificial demand?
Patrick: Exactly. We have an overproduction that we can only keep alive through subsidies and political support, just like Japan does with whaling. The state subsidisation of milk in schools, deposit-free plastic packaging if it contains dairy products, reduced tax rates on dairy products from animals compared to plant-based alternatives, state subsidies for milk advertising and, last but not least, subsidies of up to 50% for dairy farmers and so on and so forth are basically nothing more than that11Kilian Dreißig, 9 blatant examples: This is how cow's milk is favoured by the state, Vegpool Magazine, 1.11.2024, https://vegpool.de/magazin/kuhmilch-bevorzugung-staat-beispiele.html 12Silvia Liebrich, Daniela Kuhr, Rolle rückwärts der EU, Süddeutsche Zeitung, 17 May 2010, https://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/milch-subventionen-fuer-bauern-rolle-rueckwaerts-der-eu-1.482596 13 Reaction to additional tariffs - China examines subsidies for EU dairy products, tagesschau, 21.8.2024, https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/china-eu-milchprodukte-100.html 14Josef Koch, China trade dispute: 20 EU subsidies for dairy exports targeted, 23.8.2024, https://www.wochenblatt-dlv.de/politik/handelsstreit-china-20-eu-subventionen-milchexporten-visier-577951. In both cases, nature suffers and animal welfare is completely ignored because it makes more financial sense to continue exploitation instead of promoting sustainable alternatives.
Katrin: Wow, that could be a whole podcast topic! Have you ever thought about starting a podcast?
Patrick: Yes, that would be really interesting. I would need someone to ask user questions or moderate, because I tend to just babble on and jump from one topic to the next. laughs If I then took the time to research and explain the background in detail, it would certainly be exciting.
Katrin: And would you also include new information that might not yet be on your blog?
Patrick: Absolutely! I think this would be a good opportunity to dive deeper into topics such as the structural parallels in the exploitation of natural resources in different industries. It would also be exciting to discuss how artificial intelligence could work in a podcast format. As I am quite limited by my ALS condition in terms of speech, typing with my fingers or motor skills in general15Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS), German Society for Muscular Dystrophy, https://www.dgm.org/muskelerkrankungen/amyotrophe-lateralsklerose-alsa look at the current development of AI would certainly be worthwhile.
Katrin: Speaking of artificial intelligence - how do you actually see the development of AI? Especially with regard to language models, which are only based on word prediction.
Patrick: That's an interesting point. The term "artificial intelligence" is actually misleading, I think. AI doesn't work with intelligence in the human sense, but only with huge databases and word predictions16Scientific research with AI tools, University Library, Ruhr University Bochum, https://www.ub.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/recherchieren/rechercheleitfaden/wissenschaftliches-recherchieren-mit-ki-tools. The platforms have stored impressive amounts of knowledge, but in the end it's all about predicting what the "right" words are.
Katrin: That's right, that's an exciting thought. Many people think of "intelligence" as a kind of consciousness or thinking ability, but that doesn't really fit with AI.
Patrick: Exactly. Many people think of "intelligence" in terms of creativity and problem solving. But AI is nothing more than algorithms that calculate probabilities based on large amounts of data17AI for time series data - decoding complex patterns and structures in data, Fraunhofer EMFT, https://www.emft.fraunhofer.de/de/kompetenzen/systemloesungen-ki/ki-algorithmen-zeitreihenanalyse.html. The literal translation of "artificial intelligence" is "artificial knowledge". In principle, AI is like an advanced form of the old T9 keyboard, only now we have much more data and faster systems.
Katrin: Do you see this as a "knowledge machine"?
Patrick: Yes, exactly. It's more of a knowledge database than an "intelligent" machine. If I need really good answers, I can "trick" the AI by saying that its answer is the basis for a doctoral thesis. Then I often get more detailed and structured answers because the algorithm in the database recognises how serious such a query is.
Katrin: Fascinating! And do you think that many people know how AI actually works?
Patrick: Probably not. But I think awareness of this will grow. It's important that people know how AI responds and that it's only about data and word predictions - not about real intelligence or an "aura" of AI, as some sometimes perceive it.
Katrin: Finally, do you think philosophy will find answers to these questions at some point?
Patrick: Perhaps. This is already a very philosophical topic - how we define intelligence and whether a machine can "understand" us. But as long as we don't become more sustainable in areas such as whaling and the dairy industry, there are probably more important questions to answer.
You can find the background to this format and how the idea came about in this article here: The past interview experiment18Patrick Ruppelt, Where senses and mind meet, 14.11.2024, https://paddys.de/das-vergangenheitsinterview-experiment/
